George Boeree | Re: [LFN] Constructions with ‘ia’ and ‘va’

• Autor: George Boeree (“cgboeree”)
• Tema: Re: [LFN] Constructions with ‘ia’ and ‘va’
• Data: 2005-10-13 18:50
• Mesaje: 1740 (a supra, presedente, seguente)

I think the problem lies in English, not in LFN.  Must, as an
auxiliary (or more precisely, a modal) verb, does not have a tense,
so the tense must be indicated in the following verb, and in odd ways
(since the verb should use the subjunctive, which hardly exists
anymore in English!):

She must have eaten
She must eat

El ia debe come
El debe come

Notice also slightly different meanings for must:  She must eat means
it is necessary FOR her to eat (or she will die).  She must have
eaten means it is logically or empirically necessary that she ate (or
things don't make sense).

English also has the construction

She had to eat
She has to eat
She will have to eat

El ia debe come
El debe come
El va debe come

Which have perfect versions

She had to have eaten
She has to have eaten
She will have to have eaten

(I'm getting tired, aren't you?)

In LFN:

El ia debe come ja
El debe come ja
El va debe come ja

On Oct 13, 2005, at 1:29 PM, activeselective wrote:
>
> Hahaha! I understand... it is a bit strange.
> But don't think too much about 'obligation'.
> Maybe another concrete example helps:
>
> You are a detective reconstructing the past. A woman was poisoned.
> She was not forced to eat anything poisonous - she just did not know
> there was poison in the little snack prepared by her evil husband.
> So, now she is dead, the eating is in the past.
>
> You, an experienced detective, do research and of course find out
> what the conclusion must be. It must be that she was eating
> poisonous food! This police conlusion ("it must be") is now, about
> the eating in the past ("was eating"). So you type in your police
> report:
>
> she must have eaten ...
> she (the dead woman) must (now) have eaten (when she was alive) ...
> el debe ia come ...
>
> See? See that the "must" is not necessarily in the past?
> It is a "must" because it is forced(!) by logical reasoning.
> (but it is not necessarily an obligation)
>
> Of course, with enough words you can always get around the question:
> La fato debe ese ce la fema ia come ...
> But it is not about this or that particular example. It is about the
> grammatical principle: can 'ia' be used in different places?
> Is this possible: el debe ia come ?
>
> (some say yes now, some say no)
>
> Have fun puzzling!
> AS
>
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