George Boeree | Re: [LinguaFrancaNova] On embedding sentences

• Autor: George Boeree (“cgboeree”)
• Tema: Re: [LinguaFrancaNova] On embedding sentences
• Data: 2002-11-29 19:21
• Mesaje: 423 (a supra, presedente, seguente)

Alo, Oliver.

My translations till now have been casual ones (probably with many
errors and little consistency!), but your points are very well taken.  I
will do my best to be more precise below....

ocromm wrote:

> Example: Considerante ce es esensal promover la developa de relates
> bonvolente entre nasiones, la asemblea jeneral proclama esta Declara
> Universal...
>
> Rule: A participle can be used to embed a sentence

Considerante ce es esensal... < Per ce nos (la assemblea jeneral) es
considerante ce es esensal...

We could also say this:

Considerada ce es esensal... < Per ce es considerada ce es esensal...

another example:

Pensante ce tu es la, io va. < Per ce io es pensante ce tu es la, io va.

> Interpretation: The relation between the sentences is unspecific; but
> there is some relation. The sentence with the participle is not
> perfective (it doesn't say: that's over now); with a past participle
> it would be perfective:
> "Bevida multe bir, io pasea en una linia con angulas." - I'm not
> drinking any more now.

-ante and -ada are the active and passive participles, not present and
past participles, which do not exist in LFN.  The past participle is
expressed so:

Per ce io beviva multe bires,...

or

Pos io beviva multe bires,...

>
> Any other ideas to express "zig-zag"? Can I somehow make an adjective
> from a noun "angled"?
>
How about "un linea vagante?"  Or how about "angulinte" (from "angulir"
to be/make angular)?

>
> "es esensal" in the above sentence works like an "attitudinal
> auxiliary verb", i.e., it takes another verb as complement (without
> particle). Should we have a list of adjectives that can do this?
> And a list of verbs that can do it (besides the ones listed under
> "auxiliary verbs", which all take "to+inf." in English; e.g.
> "prometer".)

We just need to be careful.  "To" in English is often used as a
conjunction:  He drank to forget = he drank in order that he forget.

>
> "Considerar" takes a sentential complement: "ce+sentence".
> In what other cases can this "ce+S" be used? Are the following
> examples acceptable:
> "Ce io parla lingua franca nova es evidente" (sentential subject)
> "Io videva ce tu traversava la rua" (sentential object)

Both are good.

>
> Can this be done with all interrogative pronouns:
>
> "Ci io vide es un elefante blanca."
> "Tu deside cuanto bir tu bevi."
>
Yes.

>
> or we don't want these? I think we don't absolutely need them:
> "Io vide un elefante blanca"
>
> Maybe we need only "ce" and "si":
> "Tu deside si tu bevi mucho o no"
>
Alternatives.

>
> Example: E cuando la popla partiva a la este, los trovava un plano en
> la pais de Xinar e vava abitar ala.
>
> "Cuando" is used as a conjunction to build an "adverbial" sentence,
> meaning "when" (in German it's "als", different from the interr.)
>
> "Per ce" also has this double function ("per ce" is cited in the
> grammar as conjunction, "cuando" is not.) Then, the same should work
> for "do":
> "Do la jente canta, tu pose reposar. La jente mal no ave cantadas"
>
> Any other interrogatives that could also be a conjunction?

All of them.

>
> Or maybe we don't want this double function and rather say something
> like:
>
> "A la tempo/ora(?) ce la popla partiva a la este..."
> "A la loca ce ..."
>
Again, alternatives.

>
> One more: in the grammar, "Amar alga un es bon" is described as a verb
> ("amar") used as noun. This is a problematic interpretation, because
> this 'noun' takes an object ("alga un"). Rather I would call this a
> (defective) VP complement, just like after auxiliaries: "Tu pote amar
> alga un".

I think of them of nominalizations or gerunds.  Infinitives used as
nouns can take objects (and even adverbs -- although adverbs adjectives in LFN!)

>
> So I think basically there are two types of complements that can take
> the place of NPs (DPs): VP (inf+obj) or "ce+S". That is analogous to
> many European languages.

Yes.

>
> Justa (junta) ta responde
>
Justa!  Definitely justa!  (See previous email beginning with Oops!).
Actually, it is now TE responde (te doing double duty as possessive
adjective).  Interestingly, Juste te responde could then be translated
into the equivalent phrases Until your response or Until you respond!

Hasta la vista!  Oops, that's Spanish.  I feel "old-timers disease"
setting in!

Jorj