Simon Davies | Re: PDF and DOC files for LFN Novel uploaded. Corrections welcome!
- Autor: Simon Davies (“simon.franova”)
- Tema: Re: PDF and DOC files for LFN Novel uploaded. Corrections welcome!
- Data: 2011-01-16 15:33
- Mesaje: 3235 (a supra, presedente, seguente)
Hi again, Robert. Here are my thoughts on your translation so far:
> La Cartuxa de Parma
The word "cartuxa" is new, and I think it's unnecessary. It looks
too much like "cartux" (cartridge), for one thing. But more
importantly, a charterhouse is just a Carthusian monastery, so we
should probably just say "Carthusian monastery" in LFN.
Currently, we don't have a term for "Carthusian", and this is a
word whose form varies quite a lot from one language to another,
but never clearly indicates that the word is actually derived from
the Chartreuse mountain range.
Jorj has just suggested "cartusian" on the wiki, and I've added it
to the dictionary. It's official!
I admit I haven't read Stendhal's novel. Is it important that the
monastery is Carthusian? If not, then "La monceria de Param" would
be a feasible translation.
> Es 15 maio 1796 e jeneral Bonaparte entra Milano
As I mentioned in my previous posting, I reckon it's better to keep
the past tense in this text.
> a la testa de acel armada cual resente ia traversa la Ponte de
> Lodi
"Resente" needs to go after "traversa". One of the few places where
an adverb isn't usually allowed is immediately before the verb,
because it would look like an adjective describing the subject:
"la armada resente ia traversa" means "the recent army crossed".
> e ia ensenia la mundo ce pos tan multe sentenios Cesar e
> Alexandro ave un seguor.
"Ensenia un cosa a un person" or "instrui un person sur un cosa".
So you need "a la mundo" here. My stab at it would be "fa la mundo
aprende", to retain the sense of "apprendre" in the French text.
> La miracles de coraje e de jenio, de cual Italia ia es un
> atestor, en alga menses velia un dorminte popla;
I think the miracles lie in our past, but in the future of
Bonaparte's arrival of Milan, so the tense of "ia es un atestor"
feels wrong.
"Un dorminte popla" should be "un popla dorminte".
> an un semana ante la ariva de la franseses,
You need a preposition before any noun that isn't the subject or
object of a verb. So you need "a" with "un semana".
> la milaneses
The rule for naming inhabitants of towns and similar areas is to
use the suffix "-an", so this should be "milananes", odd though it
sounds at first. There's a discussion of this on the wiki:
- http://lfn.wikia.com/wiki/Vici_de_LFN:DL/Nomes_de_sites
> ia opina ce los es no cosa plu ce un grupo de banditos, abituada
> a sempre fuji ante la soldatos de Se Imperal e Rial altia:
"Fuji sempre". Adverbs follow verbs (although possibly that's a tad
harsh in this case).
"Se Altia Imperal e Rial". Your translation contains several other
examples of misplaced adjectives or adverbs, which I'm not going to
explicitly call out. You may wish to compare my translation below.
> a la min acel ia es reportada a los, tre veses per semana en un
> peti jornal, tan peti como un mano, primida sur paper susia.
Again, you need "a" before "tre veses".
> En la eda media, la republicistes de Lombardia ia demonstra ce
> su coraje ia es egal a la coraje de la franseses, e los ia merita
> vide se site rasada a la tera par la imperores de Deutxland.
"Rasada" means "shaved". The English verb "raze" is etymologically
related, but it seems strange to talk about shaving a city. I would
use something like "destrui" here.
This sentence is a good example of a structure that becomes heavy
and clumsy if you translate it too literally into LFN. When this
happens, always consider flipping a noun to a verb or vice versa.
In this case, you can turn the razing into a noun and say "los ia
vide la destrui intera de se site" quite elegantly.
Also, you may have rendered "faire preuve de" too literally. My
French dictionary indicates that this is nothing more than a French
idiom meaning "show", i.e. "mostra". You can then ditch the heavy
"ce"-clause, and say "ia mostra un coraje egal a acel de..."
> Ante ce los ia deveni
"Depuis que" means "since", so you don't want "ante", but "pos",
or better still "de" - conveying the idea of "from a startpoint".
"Ante ce", "pos ce" and "de ce" are OK, but it's clearer and more
common to say "ante cuando" and "pos cuando". That's because "ce"
means both "what?" (as in "ce tu ia trova?") and "that" (as in "me
ia trova ce la fenetra es rompeda"), so "ante ce" can mean both
"before what?" and "before [the fact] that".
The ambiguity of "ce" is mildly irritating to theoretical purists
like myself (at least when I'm wearing my theoretical purist hat),
but in practice it's very rarely a problem; standard workarounds
exist (such as "ante cuando"); and it gives the language character!
> 'sujetos fidos'
Why the quotation marks? I notice that one of the English
translations on the web has them, but they're not in the French.
> se xef conserna ia es primi sonetos sur teletas de tafeta cuando
> ia aveni un rituo de sposi per un fem joven ci ia parteni a un
> familia nobil o rica.
"Ia aveni" shouldn't precede its subject ("un rituo"), because then
the subject appears to be the object, which is confusing. So what
do you do instead? The subject is so long that it would be silly to
move the verb to the end of the sentence. This is a typical LFN
translation problem, and a good solution again comes from flipping
the verb into a noun: "a la aveni de la sposi de..."
> du o tre anios pos esta grande epoca en se vive,
"A du o tre anios".
> un tal fem ia prende usual un 'amiror dedicada': a veses la nom
> de sisisbeo, elejeda par la familia de la sposo, ia ocupa un loca
> onorable en la contrata de sposi.
I like "amiror dedicada" a lot. I don't like "sisisbeo", given that
there are plenty of good ways to express the concept - such as
"amiror dedicada"! If you translate the first occurrence as "amiror
dedicada", you could perhaps retain (in quotation marks) the
interesting historical phrase "cavalor servinte" for the second.
> Ia es un distantia grande entre esta costumes femin e la emosias
> profunda cual ia es provocada par la ariva subita de la franses
> armada. Pronto ia apare costumes pasionos e nova.
"Ia ave un distantia". "There is" is "ave" with no subject, or you
can say "on ave" in rare cases where the unadorned "ave" seems odd.
"Es" with no subject means "it is", where "it" refers to the
situation in general as in "es fria oji" (it's cold today), or to
a following clause as in "es bon ce tu es asi" (it's good that
you're here).
"Profonda", not "profunda" (here, and again later).
> Un intera popla ia descovre, a la 15 maio 1796, ce cada cosa cual
> el a ante ia respeta ia es suprema riable e a veses odios.
"A veses odios" appears to mean "on hateful occasions"! You could
move "a veses" to the end, or set it off with commas. The trick to
writing clear LFN is to recognize and disarm such ambiguities.
> La parti de la rejimento austrian ultim ia marca la cade de la
> ideas antica:
"Ultima". But perhaps "final" would be better. "Ultima" can mean
"ultimate" in the sense of "as yet unsurpassed", whereas here we're
we're just talking about the literal "end" of a period of history.
There's an interesting discussion of the difference at
http://lfn.wikia.com/wiki/Vici_de_LFN:DL/Final on the wiki.
> ce on risca on se vive ia deveni a la moda;
There's no need to use a "ce"-clause here, and the clause makes the
sentence feel convoluted. I would simply say: "Risca se vive ia
deveni modos."
In your notes, you discuss "on se", which you say comes from
Afrikaans. It's actually been proposed for LFN before - see
http://lfn.wikia.com/wiki/Vici_de_LFN:DL/El_se_los#El_se.2C_los_se
for the discussion - but it has never caught on, because it's
almost always redundant.
In the phrase "risca se vive", the subject is presumably "on".
It's omitted because "risca se vive" is infinitive, and infinitives
don't express their subjects directly. But "se" can only really
refer to the omitted "on" - who else could it refer to? It would be
very odd to misinterpret "se" as referring to the last Austrian
regiment, or the old ideas (or even their downfall)!
You say that "se" can be "extremely ambiguous in long, complex
sentences which mention several people", but then so can "her" in
English if you're mentioning several women, or "his" if you're
mentioning several men. And "their" is very common now as a neutral
alternative to "her" or "his", muddying the waters with the plural,
and yet we have no difficulty understanding it.
I would point out that "on" rarely occurs in a sentence where
several "actual" people are mentioned, and I don't think I've ever
encountered a case where "se" meaning "de on" could be misconstrued
as referring to someone else.
I've also never needed to resort to "de on", but there's no reason
to shun it completely. It's good regular LFN. Don't be put off by
the fact that it sounds bizarre in English and French!
> on ia vide ce per es felis pos sentenios de sentis nauseante,
> ia nesesa ce on ama on se pais con un ama vera, e xerxa atas
> eroin.
"On ia nesesa ama" would be less twisty than "ia nesesa ce on ama".
"Xerca", not "xerxa".
> Los ia es afondada en un note profunda par la continua de la
> tirania jelosa de Carolus V e de Philippus II;
I agree with you that Latinization of these particular names is the
best approach. I would avoid Roman numerals, though, as they're not
international. You could write "Carolus 5" or "Carolus Sinco",
possibly adding "Re" as a prefix for clarity.
> los ia destrui se scultas e subita los ia es inondada par lus.
Now here's an example where "se" actually *is* a bit ambiguous, but
you haven't avoided it! My initial reading of the sentence makes me
think that they destroyed their own statues, whereas it's really
the statues of Charles V and Philip II that they pulled down.
French avoids the ambiguity by using "on" and "leurs". You can't do
that in LFN, because "leurs" would still be "se". "La scultas de
estas" seems like the best shot, although you could perhaps say "la
scultas rial" if you were feeling bold.
I can improve the elegance of the sentence via my favourite trick
of flipping the verb into a noun: "Pos cade la scultas de estas, on
ia es subita inondada par lus."
> En un dui-sentenio,
I'm not convinced that's a necessary word. LFN doesn't normally use
"dui-" as a prefix. (It's found in "duifrate" and "duisore", but
they're exceptional, and of course they don't mean "un dui de un
frate" and "un dui de un sore"!)
French says "une cinquantaine d'années", which is just an idiomatic
French way of saying "cinquante années", so "sincodes anios" does
the job in LFN.
> en cual la Encyclopédie e Volaire estende se in Frans,
You have a couple of typos in "Volaire" and "in".
I'm not sure what the sense of "éclataient" is here, but I think it
conveys the idea of things suddenly popping into being or exploding
onto the scene. Perhaps "flori" or "broti" would capture this.
> la monces cria a la bon popla de Milano ce aprende leje, o
> aprende cualce cosa, ia es un multe nonusos atenta,
"Ia es" should be just "es", because reported speech in LFN uses
the same tense as the original utterance. Reported speech also
covers reported thoughts ("she was of the opinion that...") and
even cases such as "it was likely that they would help" (ia es
probable ce los va aida). Without this rule, you'd have difficulty
choosing a tense for "aida" there.
> e ce on ta ave serta un bon loca en paradiso par paia esata on se
> desi a on se prete e par reconta fidos a el cada on se peti
> pecas.
This would be clearer if you used an "if... then..." construction.
See my attempt below.
"Cada [on] se peti pecas" needs "de" before "se", at least under
the current rules. "Tota" and "ambos" are currently the only items
that can precede words like "la" and "se" in such phrases. But we
were discussing this on the wiki forum just the other day, and we
couldn't find a good reason to disallow things like "esta la
desira" and "cada se pecas". Having said that, we haven't amended
the grammar!
http://lfn.wikia.com/wiki/Vici_de_LFN:DL/Me_vole_es_forte#Esta_me_desira
> Per reali completa la debili de esta popla,
Does "énerver" mean "debili"? I thought it meant "irita".
You've omitted "autrefois si terrible et si raisonneur".
> Austria ia vende a los, barata,
More simply, "barata" would go after "vende" and not need commas.
> la vantage de no debe furni cualce enscrivedas a se armada.
"Vantaje". "Enscrivedas" is in the dictionary as "recruits", and
that's correct, but I don't think it quite works in this context.
But maybe that's just me. I would prefer to say "soldatos nova".
I hope these assorted ramblings of mine have been of some help.
I attach my own attempt at translating of the same text. I've taken
the liberty of splitting the lengthy second paragraph into two, to
make it more tolerable to read on a computer screen. Feel free to
publish this on your blog, to accompany those in LdP and Sambahsa -
and of course your own fine translation into Occidental, which I've
just been enjoying listening to!
Simon
LA MONCERIA DE PARMA
par Stendhal
Libro 1
Capitol 1
Milano en 1796
A 15 maio 1796, jeneral Bonaparte ia entra Milano a la testa de
acel armada joven cual, par traversa la ponte de Lodi, ia veni de
fa la mundo aprende ce, pos tan multe sentenios, Cesar e Alexandro
ave un seguor. La miracles de coraje e de jenio, atestada par
Italia, va velia pos alga menses un popla dorminte; ma a un semana
ante la ariva de la franseses, la milananes ia regarda los como
ancora sola un colie de banditos, abituada a fuji sempre ante la
soldatos de Se Altia Imperal e Rial: a la min, esta ia es repeteda
a los a tre veses semanal en un jornal peti, no plu grande ce un
mano, primida sur paper susia.
En la Eda Media, la lombardianes republiciste ia mostra un coraje
egal a acel de la franseses, e se premio ia es vide la destrui
intera de se site par la imperores de Deutxland. De cuando los ia
deveni sujetos fidos, se conserna xef ia es la primi de sonetos sur
teletas de tafeta ros a la aveni de la sposi de un fem joven
parteninte a alga familia nobil o rica. A du o tre anios pos acel
epoca grande de se vive, esta fem joven ia aseta usual un amiror:
la nom de esta "cavalor servinte", elejeda par la familia de la
sposo, ia ocupa a veses un loca onoros en la contrata de sposi.
Ia ave un canion entre esta costumes femin e la emosias profonda
provocada par la ariva nonprevideda de la armada franses. Costumes
nova e pasionos ia apare pronto. Un popla intera ia persepi, a 15
maio 1796, ce tota cosas cual el ia respeta a ante es suprema
riable e, a veses, odios.
La parti de la rejimento final de Austria ia indica la cade de la
ideas antica: risca se vive ia deveni aora modos; on ia vide ce,
per es felis pos sentenios de sensas blanda, on debe ama se pais
con un pasion real, e xerca atas eroin. A ante, on ia es afondada
en un note profonda par la continua de la tirania jelos de Carolus
Sinco e de Philippus Du; pos cade la scultas de estas, on ia es
subita inondada par lus. Ja tra sincodes anios, cuando la
Ensiclopedia e Voltaire ia broti en Frans, la monces ia cria a la
bon popla de Milano ce aprende leje, o aprende an cualce cosa de la
mundo, es un labora forte nonusos, e ce, si on va paia bon se desi
esata a se prete e ta reconta fidos a el cada de se pecas peti, on
va es cuasi serta de ave un loca bela en paradiso. Per completi la
irita de esta popla tan temable e razonos a ante, Austria ia vende
barata a los la vantaje de no debe furni soldatos nova a se armada.